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progression .    I know you do not want replay from muslim

you just want a respound form non-muslim strengthening  your attitude  which is unjustice  .    but any way for who want the truth  this  is  an old reply I wrote to  MarkChina   .

I wrote this thread when he used the same verses that you used just to make ebaby's members think that islam is an intolerate religion  .  

2  -  when does jihad apply  ?

Sunni and Shi’a  Muslims agree  that jihad applies to the defense of territory, life, faith, and property  .

Mark you said  :

We non-Muslims always have to provide proof, don't we? But you Muslims are so superior that you don't have to! Ha, what a joke you are!

No  ,    sure we have to bring the evidences  , we are not superior  at all :     

Evidence s  from qur'an  :

    Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers (9:13)

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. ( 2:190 )

Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;(22:39)

And their Lord hath heard them (and He saith): Lo! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. So those who fled and were driven forth from their homes and suffered damage for My cause, and fought and were slain, verily I shall remit their evil deeds from them and verily I shall bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow – A reward from Allah. And with Allah is the fairest of rewards (3:195)

Bethink thee of the leaders of the Children of Israel after Moses, how they said unto a prophet whom they had: Set up for us a king and we will fight in Allah's way. He said: Would ye then refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you? They said: Why should we not fight in Allah's way when we have been driven from our dwellings with our children? Yet, when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned away, all save a few of them. Allah is aware of evil-doers ( 2 : 246 )

who are the folks that muslims should never fight them  ?

it is the folk that love peace for them selves and for others

it is the folks  that  hate  to wage war .     

it is the folks that fulfill the treaties that are between them and  Islamic country  .

it is the folk that did not moved muslims from their homes and occupied their country .

no matter what religion they have .

evidences   : 

[90] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Read carefully  ,  no way  , no way to fight them  .moreover  ,   qur'an told muslims to be kind and deal justly  with these folks   .

Evidences :

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.(60:8 )

Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them – (All) such are wrong-doers.(60 : 9)

christian people have especial treatment because of this verse :  

[82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (5 : 82 )

Does  non muslims must be fought by muslims until they convert to Islam  ?

The answer  is   No    ,  not out of my mind , but  because of these clear verses  :

“There is no compulsion in religion.” ( 2 – 250 )

[99] And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?

[100] No soul can believe, except by the Will of Allah, and He will place Doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.(10 : 99-100)

[56] It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

actually , there are more verses can be here to prove the last point but I was not able to find them .

unfortunatly  ,

jihad in concept and practice has been appropriated and distorted by Muslim extremists as part of their violent   .

mark  , 

this is the first part of the answer , and until now , I did not answer you about the verses that you paste as evidence in previous thread  .  the answer will be here very soon  ,  but I can give you an introduction : 

did you notice that the verses you quoted  is from one sura  , sura number nine and it is called altouba or   bra'a    .
 

this sura is an exception  , and all the order that contains  are for specific people  at prophet time  , only them  .  .  and it is revealed  for one specific  occasion in the prophet  time also   .

in that time god patience  had been over  . and his anger reached the highest level  . because of specific events and deeds came from the pagans and their supporters in makkah and in the viliage near of it  . 

I will try to explain the historical facts with  the interpretation of each verse . 

I now it will be very hard to me  . but I will try my best

just give me time , 

Monatta,
firstly I’m sorry if I didn’t have facts or proof to say this.I just concluded from other moslem’s posts that there’s manual order on jihad operation.is that true?do you believe that war could be a best solution either even for spesific condition just like what you’d said?

Thanks for the answer.

1. I know what jihad means. I have known what it means for years and years and years. I've heard it used enough times. I also know what 'mein kampf' means. Jihad simply refers to 'struggle'. What struggle though? If, as moderate Muslims believe, it means the struggle to be a good, tolerant person, then I have absolutely no argument with that. However, if it means a struggle to impose Islam on the world through subjugation and death, I have a big problem with that. I find the Muslim attempts at conversion tiresome, but I have no objection to them per se.

2. The Muslims here at Ebaby! usually provide no evidence or provide only 'circular' evidence (e.g. "The Koran says it and the Koran is always right, so what the Koran says is right."). It is good to see that this is slowly changing.

3. Regarding your quotes from the Koran, define words like 'attack' and 'hostilities'. For example, I have been told that I am being hostile to (attacking) Islam by questioning the authenticity of the Koran. One of my biggest problems with religious texts (not only the Koran) is that they are simply to imprecise. This is why I previously said that interpretation is important. However, the Muslims here at Ebaby! – yourself included – told me that the Koran can only be interpreted in one way. My question remains – which way should the Koran be interpreted? As Osama bin Laden (a recognised expert on Islam) interprets it?

4. There is also the problem of which sura came first and which came later. Most of the peaceful suras were written  when Muhammed was virtually powerless and insignificant. The later, aggressive, suras were written when he became more powerful. Muslims who take the Koran literally are obliged to give preference to the later, aggressive, suras – because they were written later, abrogating the earlier ones.

5. I have dealt with the sura stating there is no compulsion in religion before. I agree that there is no complusion in the literal sense. The choices are death, subjugation or conversion. Some people, myself included, do not see this as a real choice. For example, how about a fourth choice – the right to practise my own religion (or no religion) without being subjugated by Islam?

6. At the end of your post made at 6:25, you say that the idea of jihad has been distorted by extremist Muslims. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! This is exactly what I have been saying for months! The Koran can be interpreted in more than one way and moderate Muslims need to stand up and ensure that the militant interpretation is shown to be wrong! (Please refer to point 3.)

Now, please read point 6 again, just make sure that you have fully understood what I am saying. Then re-read point 3. Then re-read point 6.

I await your response. I am sure that you will refer to the Koran in your response (fair enough), but (as several people have pointed out before) it would be kinda nice to hear your opinion in your own words.

Oh, and by the way, until I get a definitive confirmation from the Muslims here at Ebaby! that Islam is not the 'one true religion', I have to doubt the sincerity of any claims of tolerance.

الله يسدد خطاك  MONA

Oh, and by the way, until I get a definitive confirmation from the Muslims here at Ebaby! that Islam is not the 'one true religion', I have to doubt the sincerity of any claims of tolerance.

I don't think so , cuz I can bet you , they don't knew the islam exactly and don't knew what it want from humans and maybe they are in the beginning , thus, any doubt can turning his opinion

Moantte , great effort . thank you very much ..

Monatta,

I wish all muslims on ebaby could efforts to introduce Islam correctly.may Allah bless you.

O.o OMG….I thought this forum will experienced some development in..KWIM-issue while I'm gone..but..uhm..it's still the same…[sigh]