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how Muslims should treat the unbelievers?
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Name of QuestionerMaynard – United KingdomTitleMuslims & Non-Muslims: An Inevitable Clash?Date29/Jun/2009 QuestionWhat is the difference between the world of believers and disbelievers and how Muslims should treat the unbelievers?TopicInterfaith Issues, Virtues, Islamic CreedName of CounselorShahul HameedAnswer Salam, Maynard.
The Quran, and the Sunnah (the Prophet's deeds and sayings) distinguish Muslims from non-Muslims on the basis of their religious faith and practice. As Almighty Allah (God) has appointed the human race as His ambassador (khalifah) on earth, He has given us faculties like reason, imagination and discretion. He has given us freedom too; and He sent down His Guidance to help us to abide by His laws, so that we do not go astray by misusing our freedom. Yet all humans do not choose to follow Allah's guidance; and consequently humanity is divided into two camps: Those who follow Allah's guidance and lead a life of submission to His laws (i.e. Muslims); and those who reject Allah's guidance and follow other ways (i.e. non-Muslims).
Second, in the matter of religious faith and practice, Muslims must provide non-Muslims all the freedom required for their faith and practice. Muslims are taught that no coercion should be used in the matter of religious preaching. Allah in the Noble Quran commands:
{Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will, believe; and let him who will, reject (it): …}* (Al-Kahf18:29)
Thomas Arnold wrote:
* (Aal `Imran 3:84)
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Anyway, to continue my monopoly of the thread:
I'll try to talk about those a little .
"Prohibition of Idolatry: but we some part of Jews, who deny the judaims, and you stil consider them as Jews. what is their place in the next life ! Prohibition of Murder : what about the Jews did and do in palestine every day, from murdering kids and women, or that is considered as defending yourselves ? Prohibition of Theft: this seems interesting, what about the lands that Jews steal from palestinians every day !!! Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: I would go to Israel, to see what is going on there, it is torrible in this way, and thise prehibition is not respected at all. Prohibition of Blasphemy: what about what you say about Allah in the Torah, like Allah regret what he did :"
There's something you misunderstand when I say these people are Jewish. Being Jewish is not dependant on practicing Judaism. Jewishness is what you are. If you have a Jewish mother, or have converted, you are a Jew and nothing can take that away. Me saying that they're Jewish doesn't mean that what they're doing is right, it's just stating a fact. A Jew that kills, rapes and steals is still a Jew, just a bad one. A Jew that converts to Islam or Christianity or any other religion, faith, or becomes an atheist is still a Jew, and he stil is bound by the yoke of heaven to follow the 613 commandments as G-d has commanded him or her. I hope what I've said is clear now. Jews were bound by the 7 Noahide Laws too, before Mount Sinai. The 613 commandments also have the same 7 commandments inside them, just wish much much more. One of the reasons why Jews discourage people from conversion is because its accepted, that living as a Jew is much harder and complicate than simple living as a non-Jew.
what is their place in the next life ! A Jew that does not follow what he is commanded to do has no place in the world to come. That is clear.
"what about the Jews did and do in palestine every day, from murdering kids and women, or that is considered as defending yourselves ?" What Israel does in self-defense is a seperate topic, and not something that I'm getting into here. "what about the lands that Jews steal from palestinians every day !!!" Among the 613 commandments are things that have to do with the Land of Israel. Building a Temple is one of them. Holding the agricultural laws (orla) is another. These are straight from the Torah. Again, this subject is political. Unlike all our previous discussions, I want to keep it religious.
The Jews of this world, and the Jews of Israel as well are not all perfect and have a lot of betterment to do. That is our own business. I can tell you for sure that committing sins outside the land of Israel is bad, but committing them INSIDE the land of Israel is even worse. And this to me personally is a big problem. I would prefer that Israel become more religious than it is, and I honestly think that it is moving in that direction. 60 years ago, it was the secular left-wing Zionists that controlled everything and were always in power. Now, the right wing and religious parties are progressively getting more powerful, and the size of the religious population is growing. This makes me hopeful.
So the Lrd changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:12-14, NASB). This passage is from the scene of the Golden Calf. After large parts of the Israelites had turned against gd and worship the calf, hashem (gd) was ready to destroy all of the Israelites. Moses pleaded with gd and even said that if gd destroyed the israelites, he would want to be destroyed as well. Hashem did not 'regret' anything. He merely looked upon his people with his mercy and did not destroy them. That's the meaning.
Genesis 2:2 ^ does allh, the creature of everything get tired and have rest, or change his mind ??
In other parts of the Torah, it says Hashem 'wrote', 'sent', 'listened'.. Does this mean that he has arms or ears? Of course not. It is meant symbolically. The Torah was written in a way for human beings to understand, and it doesn't mean literally. Gd doesn't get tired or have emotions and constraints. Hashem stopped what he was doing, for reasons only know to wisdom of the Allmighty, and creation stopped. From this is derived that Jews equally should emulate this pause and abstain from productive activity on the 7th day.
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"I see that you don't believe in hell, and you consider the punishment as a short period of time, then all go to the heaven, without judgement and rewarding from allah." There are different views among the rabbis about this. There is no combined single Jewish view of the afterlife. Judaism concerns itself more with life and how a person lives here and now, rather than a time we don't know about.
Talmud says that : Paradise is the abode of the Jewish souls, and none will enter Paradise except the Jews. No that is not what the Talmud says. It is precisely the Talmud that lays out the groundwork that all of humanity has a part of the world to come. I know it's in style among Jew-haters to bash the Talmud, but there is little truth to most of what is said.
"and for you, the soul of jews are dear for allah, and the souls of non jews are not, like the souls of devils and animals !!" Absolute bullshit. There are some things you simply don't get about Judaism. It is an ethnocentric 'religion'. Most of what it concerns itself with is Jews, and their role and duty in this world. It's very easy to assume that just because it talks more about Jews and their place in the world to come that non-jews have no part in it. That simply isn't the case.
The Talmud does NOT say that non-Jews are animals. It doesn't say its ok to rob them and kill them or enslave them. It doesn't say Jews are better than non-Jews and preferred by gd. Judaism says that we are a holy people and that we need to strive to live up to our holiness. Throughout the ages people have interpreted this with hatred and as a way of us claiming that we're better than everyone else. Jews have their role in this world, and non-Jews have theirs. |
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and …........ the list is long. are tou trying to say that you don't believe in that ? No. I'm going further, not only do I not believe that, most of it is a bunch of lies. The Talmid quotes I've heard all before: - Coschen Hamischpat 405: "A pregnant non-jew is no better than a pregnant animal." CLAIM RESPONSE It states that if an ox gored a pregnant woman, and this resulted in the loss of the fetus, the owner does not have to pay for the loss of the fetus (medical expenses and other damages are discussed elsewhere). If an ox gored a pregnant non-Jewish slave-woman, the owner of the ox has to pay for the loss of the fetus to the owner of the slave-woman (because the owner would have had another slave to work for him had the woman given birth). The same applies if the ox gored a pregnant cow, or a sheep, because had the animal given birth, the owner would have had an extra one. The law is clearly hinged on the rights of the owner, and does not compare non-Jews and animals in any way. It is purely legal, and does not have any philosophical or social implications.
- Baba Mezia, 114b "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
CLAIM RESPONSE (1) Apparently a deliberate mistranslation. The passage deals with the technical rules of corpse-impurity which, according to the author of this text, apply to Jews and not to gentiles. In this connection Ezekiel 34:31 is cited: "And ye My sheep [referring to Israel], the sheep of My pasture, are men [Hebrew: "adam"], and I am your God, saith the Lord God." From a careful midrashic reading of this Biblical verse, Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai deduced "Only "ye" [i.e., Israel, not other nations] are designated "adam," in the sense that only Jewish corpses and graves generate impurity according to Numbers 19:14: "This is the law: when a man ['adam'] dieth in a tent, every one that cometh into the tent…shall be unclean seven days…" The passage is legal and exegetical, not theological. If anything, it seems to put Jews on a lower footing than non-Jews. Typically, the words "but beasts" were added on by whoever put this list together. They do not appear in the original.
- Midrasch Talpioth, p 225, Warsaw 1855: "Even though God created the non-Jew they are still Animals in human form. It is not becoming of a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
CLAIM RESPONSE (1) RESPONSE (2)
- Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b: "Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human." CLAIM RESPONSE
The more I read these lies, and how many Arabs like you believe them, the sicker I feel. You should be ashamed.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/qts.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/Response1.html http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/van_hyning.html
Nothing is more pathetic that making up lies to justify hatred for other reasons. |
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The other quotes by certain Rabbis is exactly that, their opinions. Rabbis often disagree about many things and this doesn't make it mainstream Judaism. Just like I can come up with thousands of quotes from imams that call Christians and Jews pigs and monkeys. And even worse: THATS an ACTUAL quote straight from the Koran.
Don't throw stones from glass houses.
what is the world to come ? heaven or hell or what ? Heaven and Hell as we know it is an invention by the early Christians, and the Muslims later copycated the same thing. It's not a Jewish concept and never was. you have only to go to Quran, to know what is the nest life, and what will happen then, because Quran and Islam is the last messenge of allah to all mankind. The Quran copycats its eschatology from Christianity. Copies of nonsense remains nonsense.
how can allah (or as you call him Hashem) change his mind ? the meaning was chaning the mind and regreting of God. His wisdom is beyond my understanding. It could well be that He didn't actually change His mind but that it was all predetermined.
like Avigdor Lieberman, a terrible man, who doesn't know what is right or wrong, the right thing for him, is to kill and throw the palestinians and steal their lands and estroy their homes, this is the exemple of a religious man for jews.
Avigdor Liebermann is an ex club bouncer, and the boss of one of Israel's most secular parties. He is not religious in any way. When the elections were going on, the religious parties came out strongly against him and even called him 'Satan'. You have no clue what you're even talking about, do you?
is to steal all the lands, and throw all the palestinians, and to destroy the Aqsa mosque and ….............. !!!!!!? If Jews invaded Mecca and built a big mosque on top of the Kaaba, then you'd be the ones saying that WE don't respect your religion. and I don't see your commandment in the occupied land of palestine. There is no such thing as Palestine, in the Torah and outside of the Torah. I'm not here to talk about Arab political inventions. Maybe in 10 years time, they'll be talking about the eternal nation of 'Gaza', or the West Bank as independant states. "for us, it's a religious war, and we won't sleep intill we get back all our right, including ending the occupation state of Israel." You can make it into any kind of issue you want, if it makes you feel better, it's not my concern. This conversation is about religion, and all you do is try to change it into a poltical discussion. The reason for these arguments is you, not me. If you want to go and argue with some Israelis, there are plenty of other sites and forums for that. "talking about the Holly land, as the land that you live forever, it's just a illussions, and from dreams, not more." oh? How do you figure this? Open the Hebrew Bible and then tell me again that the land is not important to us.
"but what you have, is only from some people created it, and not a promise from allah." "The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, And I will give the land to your descendants after you." Genesis 35:12
That is what the Torah says, and that is what we follow. I could care less what the Muslims think about it. They follow a different religion.
what is the Temple that you're talking about, and some are waiting that it came from the sky, as you told me one day! However it comes is only up to fate. That may or may not be in my days.
"do the no jews have a place in the next life acording to you ?" Of course they do and I've said this dozens of times already.
that because acording to us, muslims, Jedaism is not a religion for all times and all mankind, but was for a period of time, and for the Israelites, and then will be followed with other messengers, and the last one, is Prophet Mohamed, with was refered in Torah, but we don't know where is the text which talks about it, maybe deleted. I know very well what Islam believes in this regard. As I don't believe the Koran or Islam is divine, the Muslims have absolutely no authority to decide what is valid and what isn't. I simply don't care. Mohammed is mentioned nowhere in any of the Hebrew Bible. He was not Jewish, and all future prophets are said to be 'from my house', that is from the Jewish people. Him being an Ishmaelite does not make him count as being apart of 'the house'. As far as I'm concerned, some new religion that popped up among the Arabs barely 1400 years has no credibility to say that it supercedes my religion. What I go by is what the Torah says, and the Torah is binding upon Jews for all time, both its duties and promises.
"maybe, you have to go 2000 years ago, and 1400 years ago, and also nowadays, to find all people that converted from Judaims to other religion, and ask them to respect the commandments." Jews that turned from Judaism married non-Jews and their line then died out from the Jewish people. Some groups try to find Jews that are still around in remote parts of the world to bring them back.
For you, Jews are the supper race, that allah created, and love it, and make it over all other nation. Are you that afraid of my answers and my views that you have to invent nonsense and place it in my mouth?
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during the history, a lot of jews converted, and they're not jews anymore, and you still consider them as Jews? Yes. Any person that was ever born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism is Jewish forever and nothing can change that. Someone not born to a Jewish mother is equally not Jewish. Like Bernie Madoff, who it turns out, has a Jewish father not a Jewish mother.
Is that according to Torah or to what According to Jewish Law, derived from the Torah. Does allah consider some people Jews, even they don't believe in Judaims ? If you sign a contract, and then decide to ignore it, are you still bound by that contract? so, do you believe that muslims and Christians go to the heaven ? There is no heaven in Judaism. In terms of their share in the next life, yes, I believe Muslims and Christians have a share in it. take the exemple of nowadays, when the Jews found the opportunity of own weapons and create military groups, they occupied palestine and thrown its people. how do you expect they they were allowed to have weapons !!
To defend themselves against Arab thugs. Just as they did in Palestine. The Haganah and Irgun set themselves up to defend themselves against Arab rioters. Good for them. And indeed the Tzahal is there, fully armed to make sure that the Arabs don't kill Jews as they used to do. |
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Amalikes don’t descend from your “Esau” as you believe
Read the family tree. It's a given. All descendants from Esau are also descended from Noah and Abraham.
And they’re from the first people who speak Arabic. I'm not interested in invented, reformed, Arab nationalist 'history'. I follow what the Torah says. If you want to play the self-victimization game and say that all the Arabs are descended from Amalek and that is the reason why the Israelis don't like you, you're wasting your time. Judaism does not say that the Arabs are Amalek, it says the opposite. I'm not here for little games. |
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quote please? Or do you think you can just make things up and that we'll believe you? |
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It's great complaining about massacres in wars that the Arabs themselves started.
It's similar to the bully complaining when he gets his ass kicked by the victim and his friends.
It reminds me of Neo-nazis claiming that the Allies were the true murderers and that they were the victims because of the bombing of Dresden. |
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Massacre at the Ibrahimi Mosque (25 February 1994) The Israeli government was not even involved and condemned it. Why do you Arabs bring up the same shit in all of your arguments? One crazy Jew in Hebron goes postal, and already its the fault of the Israeli government. As far as I know, Baruch Goldstein was a doctor, driven crazy by the constant Arab attacks and finally went mad.
Massacre at Sabra and Shatila (18 September 1982) That wasn't comitted by Israel either, but by Arabs.
All the other 'massacres' were incident in wars that the Arabs launched against Israel, and lost. |
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